4 years, 7 months ago-
Posts
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@Kenny,
I am trying to make Isabel Laced Lavender Orpingtons.
I have some that have decent lacing, but that I do not think have correct type, color or body conformation.
lavender is recessive gene, diluter of black and gold.
I want better body type and darker Isabel (diluted red) color.
I have a few Gold laced Orpingtons that I had planned to breed these birds to, in an effort to improve their faults.
They have better conformation of body, lacing, but color is not what I am looking for.
I want the Mahogany gene to make the red darker so the Isabel pops more when it is lavenderized.
I have a cock and hen that have good color, Mh gene, some lacing genes, and are also split to Lav.
I like them, and am considering just using them as my seed fowl, but I like the shape and body of the others Gold Lace above better.
so.. I am having a hard time choosing my seed fowl.
also I don;t know 100% that I will like the combo of Mh and Lav, what I have seen in pics on FB and such I like, but I dont know for sure.
also I believe these are the best birds I can get. Some came from California, some from New York. I live in Kentucky.
Currently, I am just playing with combinations of birds and hatching out a decent number to see what they look like, with the hope that I can pick seed fowl from some combination of these.
Truthfully, I dont know that I am asking. basically just wanted to share with the group what I am doing, and any guidance or thoughts or advice would be appreciated.
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Hey MBird,
After reading your post and looking at the pics of your birds, my first thought is to keep the colors separate and pure, since I’m more about pure colors rather than mixing colors. Improvement of color is a matter of selecting offspring showing the best color plumage. However, there are varieties, such as Pyles where this is practiced, so, not totally uncommon.
The same thing with conformation. I would breed your best birds, of the same color and select the offspring with the best type. A good way to select for type is to take a picture from the standard, darken as a silhouette, and select the birds with the best type that matches the silhouette.
I hear what you want to do with the Mahogany and the Lavender, but my question is, can you purify that color? Both colors Lav/Mh are receive. This is a breeding that I have not done yet. Not sure what the results would be, and what the intensity and rate of occurrence of those two colors would be.
If you cannot purify that color Lav/Mh, then you would need to keep and improve both varieties, do a cross to get the results you are looking for and never breed the offspring.
Am I understanding you correctly, or am I way off?
There are a few things I want you to keep in mind, when doing these kinds of experiments:
- conformation always before color
- improvement is gradual and slow.
- the more chicks you can hatch, manage and afford, the better. This will give you more birds to select from.
Nancy’s very curious what the result would be with this breeding. lol, she’s serious!
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@I wrote a long reply and I think i lost it! darn. will re-do i guess
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@Kenny and Nancy,
I am excited that you are excited about my project! I think that is good platform to discuss/show what I am doing and where I am starting.
There is no *good pic of what I am trying to create. I dont think it exist.. But his is close in terms of type and color that I am striving for.
and this type except lavander and Isabel color.
are you familiar with Sigrid Van Dort? She is from the netherlands and has a book that I consider very accurate in terms of the genetics of color.
this is her exert on Mh gene that she feels is Dominant.
I dont think I know what you mean by ‘purify that color’. I am assuming you mean get Homozygous for that gene?
My understanding of color genetics is, If a bird does not have a copy of a Dominant gene, say Mh, then that gene is not going to appear even if you concentrate the genes by sib matings. And thus requires an ‘outcross’ to get that gene in your strain. Is that how you see it as well?
- also I am not 100% convinced that this cock and hen has Mh gene, he just has darker red than the other birds. better pic of him.
I do not think think my lighter birds have Mh, or genes that darken red, so I am concerned about using them, and I would 100% have to outcross them to A or B to get lav gene.
((call them C and D))
example:
I do not like the type of my current Isabell Laced Lavander birds- I do know thier original breeder and have been in communication with her. Was originally a Gold Laced Oropinton vs Lavender Orpington. then bred together. 3-4 generations .(however I dont think she used just one cock and hen and then true sib mated, I think she used muliple cocs and hens and group mated and then tried to select out of them. I acually bought chicks from a guy that she sold chicks to the year before)
((will call them A and B))
However getting lav/lav Co/Co Ml/Ml Pg/Pg on an eb base is not easy and there are prob only 20 of those in the US right now, but their conformation if terrible- so the whole conformation before color rule, basically excludes them from being thier own strain by themselves. right? or can type to ‘improved through selection’ when you start with bad type?
Especially now that that I have Mh, or a darker red gene and lav gene, and at least some copies of Co Ml and Pg that I believe I can concentrate in these 2.
((call them E and F))
I plan on hatching every egg laid from march – september from different pairs and see how they grow out. In hopes to pick my adam and eve from them.
I am very happy to have be come a full member and now believe that I can do this!
I have also realized I need better pics in order to show what I am talking about.. will work on that 🙂
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That silver/lavender is very beautiful.
yes, I’m familiar with Sigrid Van Dort’s book, but don’t have it yet.
What I mean about purifying a color, or any trait is to make that trait as homozygous as possible, or to breed them in such a way that the recessives will remain hidden. It’s all about uniformity and consistence in all traits.
You are right about dominance and the expression of a gene. They have to have a copy of that gene for it to be expressed. But if they do have a copy of the dominant gene, it will be expressed. The only question is, is it homozygous pure or heterozygous impure. Therefore, if it’s not already there, you will need to add it.
Since you are going to need to do an outcross, which is very risky on many levels, I would be careful not to destroy your original lines/variations. Make this a side project.
You ask a great question, and a tricky one, “Do you work on color now and work on type later?” The answer is – as important as color is, if you lose the proper type, you lose the breed and you lose the strain. Next to health, type and overall conformation is number 1!
If it were me, I would make sure their conformation of body is right, then start working on color, making sure that the birds you use always have the right type.
I know I’m asking a lot right now, and according to the birds that exist, this can be a tall order, but in the long run, I believe this will be best.
Remember, we can always do a coaching call, if we are not on the same program here. lol
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@oh man! I just re-did it haha!.
you saying Silver/lav is the main reason I want to add Mh, because unless the red gets darker, the Isabella looks like a dirty silver.
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Hey M-bird,
I was out feeding my chickens and thinking about the breeding you want to do. This is what I was thinking:
Silver is a dominant gene and red is a recessive gene. The silver/lav cock is expressing lavender body, but is also expressing the silver hackle and saddle. I’m not understanding why Sigrid Van Dort is saying that the Mh Mahogany gene is dominant. When I look at the breeding you want to do, the red should spoil the silver. And, not sure the result of mating the Lavender to the Mahogany. This is outside my expertise.
I usually shy away from mixing and crossing to produce a different plumage colors, especially if I can’t reproduce that color within the same family or strain.
If I’m still off here, we may need to get on the phone. I’m having trouble wrapping my mind around all this. lol
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@Kenny,
You are hitting on my main problem with birds A and B.
They are not silver.
At least I dont think they are silver.
They came from Gold Laced birds and Lavender birds- Gold laced s+/s+ cock and s+/- hen. aka red/gold so GL cant carry dominant Silver-
Lavender birds can be gold or silver. Does not affect phenotype. Different Strains are different based on how they were bred.
I have talked to original breeder. Who also breeds sliver laced birds, and assures me there is not way this strain of birds can be silver.
Mh is a enhancer of red/gold and would have no effect on Silver.
The recessive lav gene dilutes both black and red – black to Lavender and Gold/red to Isabel- straw color.
The darker the red, the brighter the straw color.
A and B have super light lsabella. So much so that it appears Silver in pics.
Only thought is that Cock could be S/s+ and just be dirty silver. but I dont think so.
Light plays a big role in showing the Isabel color.
More I think about it. I dont think i can use these birds.
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@I think it at my post again. It does not like my pics. But I’m not good with words and I feel like my pics show more than what I am saying.
to answer your question: yes.
Lavender gene is recessive. One you breed a Lav to a Lav. 100% offspring is Lav.
I am fascinated with the color genetics, I may not have created this variety. But I think after reading and listening, I think I can darn near perfect it!
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@yes: E and F above are both carrying recessive lav – Lav+/lav and Lav+/lav – so 25% of chicks will be lav/lav-
you breed those together and get get 100% lav/lav. Chick below from E vs F (just like I have heard you talk about single comb chickens)
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